Not Likely the CSS Georgia-- Part 3: Back to the American Revolution?

If tied to the HMS Rose, these discoveries  would be quite historical.  The Rose was built in England in 1757 and prowled American colony waters  in the 1770s in an effort to put a stop to widespread smuggling in Rhode Island.  The ship also operated in the Hudson River by New York City in the early days of the American Revolution.  

By 1779, with Savannah still under British control, British forces scuttled the Rose in the Savannah River  to keep the French fleet from sailing up it to aid American forces attempting to capture the city.

For now, the recovered objects are being kept in large vats  of water to replicate the conditions they were in for all those years.  Experts and further exploration in the area s where the objects were found will hopefully clarify the objects.  Meanwhile, dredging operations around where the objects were found has been suspended.

Of course, in an area like the Savannah River and the city which has been in use for over 250 years, there is no telling what else might turn up.

--Old B-Runner

Not Likely the CSS Georgia-- Part 2: The CSS Georgia and HMS Rose

The CSS Georgia was a Confederate ironclad built in 1862, that saw little action during the Civil War, essentially an ironclad floating battery anchored by Fort Jackson to impede the Union fleet from sailing up the river.

It was scuttled by Confederate forces in 1864 after Savannah fell to the Union army under Major General William T. Sherman.  The wreck was discovered and marked in1968 after it was struck by a dredge, and recovery efforts got underway in earnest  in 2015, during the early stages of  the Savannah Harbor deepening project.  I wrote about this at length back then.  Just hit the label CSS Georgia ironclad to see those posts.

The extra care in dredging by the sites of Fort Jackson and the CSS Georgia comes about because of the possibility of dangerous parts of the ship sliding further into the river bed.  But experts believe the cannons and anchor might date to an even earlier age, possibly as far back as the 1770s and the American Revolution.

The cannons, anchor and timber will be further analyzed by the Corps of Engineers and divers will be sent down to place the items in a more  specific historical context.

Historic records indicate that there are several historic shipwrecks in that vicinity, but there is a good possibility that it might be the HMS Rose, but that can't be verified until after further research.

--Old B-R'er

Most Likely Not From the CSS Georgia-- Part 1: An Anchor, Some Cannons and a Timber

From the April 13, 2021, Waterways Journal Weekly  "Dredge contractor turns up cannons, anchor while working in the Savannah River" by Frank McCormack.

A dredge contractor working on the Savannah Harbor  Expansion Project they are used to dredging up lots of sand as they deepen the harbor from 42 to 47 feet.

But in February, the crew of the ship turned up items of far more archaeological significance while working in the vicinity of Fort Jackson, a 19th century fort built in the years leading up to the War of 1812, located just a few miles east of Savannah.

The crew brought up several cannons, an anchor and a timber, all likely to date from well before the Civil War.

Since the dredge site was so close to the proximity of where the CSS Georgia, a Confederate ironclad, sank in the closing days of the war, extra screening was being enforced,  This process is intended to identify  potential discarded  military munitions  or unexploded ordnance  that might have migrated from the CSS Georgia site into the channel over the past 150 years.

--Old B-Runner

John Julius Guthrie Obituary-- Part 2

Early in his life, he entered the United States navy, and when the war broke out, cast his fortunes with the Confederacy.

He at one time commanded the Advance, owned by North Carolina, and used in running the blockade.  he was also in command, at Halifax,  in this State,  when the Confederate and North Carolina authorities were building vessels there on the Roanoke.

At other times  during the war, he commanded at Eufaula, Alabama,  and at other points in the South.

A more gallant officer and purer man  never walked the deck of a ship.  His untimely end  is a great loss to  the United States signal service, and is deeply lamented  by the citizens of Norfolk and Portsmouth, if we may judge from the expressions contained in   their newspapers.

--Old B-R'er

John Julius Guthrie Obituary-- Part 1

From the Newspapers.com site.

Clipped from the December 1, 1877, Raleigh News.

CAPT. J.J. GUTHRIE

The Norfolk  Landmark says  of Capt. J.J. Guthrie who was lost on the wreck of the Huron:

He was a native of North Carolina, having been born at Raleigh; and had a sword of honor voted him by that State in recognition of an act of conspicuous  gallantry performed in the China Seas.  He had served with  credit and distinction in the navies of the Union and of the Confederacy, and recently had entered  on the discharge of his duties in connection with the Life Saving Service with generous enthusiasm.

The Landmark is mistaken as to the nativity of Capt. Guthrie.  John Julius Guthrie  was the son of Dr. John  Guthrie, of Washington, N.C.,  where he was born about the year 1814,  and was therefore in his 63rd year at the time of his death.

His father died when he was quite a boy,  and he came to this city  with his widowed mother, who is buried here in the old cemetery.  He was placed under the care of  Rev. Dr.  William McPheeters, and went to school to this distinguished preacher and educator  at the Raleigh Academy.

--Old B-Runner

A Rebel Captured Last Slave Ship for Union, John J. Guthrie-- Part 1: Quite a Story

From the June 7, 1996, Virginian-Pilot (Va.) by Alan Flanders.

The exceptional  events surround John Julius Guthrie's life should place him high on the list of national heroes.

One of the strangest ironies of his life  started out on routine patrol duty on the USS Saratoga off the west coast of Africa on April 21, 1861.  (Remember, Confederates fired on Fort Sumter on April 12, 1861, effectively starting the shooting part of the Civil War.  Of course, there was no way the Saratoga's crew could have known about it back then.)

The U.S. Navy had been active in the suppression of slavery for the past twenty years.  While political debate over the legality of slavery heated up back home, Commander Alfred Taylor, commanding officer of the Saratoga, and his executive officer, John Julius Guthrie, of Portsmouth, Virginia,  were on the lookout for merchantmen engaged in the slave trade.

Guthrie was no doubt justifiably proud of his ship as she had refitted at Gosport (Navy Yard, Norfolk by Portsmouth, Va.) before departing for Africa from Philadelphia and carried  a number of local men as part of her crew.

Just at the mouth of the Congo River, a report reached the Saratoga that a large ship loaded with slaves was hidden up the river.  It was soon learned that the ship was none other than the Nightingale.  Despite her name, she was the most notorious slaver of them all.

As second in command, Guthrie was chosen to handpick a boarding party and  sail inland and capture the slaver.

--Old B-Runner

Lt. John Julius Guthrie, C.S. Navy and His Military Background-- Part 2

Upon return to the United States with the captured slaver Nightingale, John Guthrie resigned his commission and joined the Confederate Navy where he served as a captain for the duration of the war.

When asked about his role in the liberation of nearly 1000 slaves before the war, he replied in essence that "it was the right thing to do."

His military prowess was honed from his early childhood in Washington, North Carolina.  His great grandfather and two great uncles served in the American Revolution.  His grandfather, Dr. John Wilburn Guthrie, was a surgeon during the War of 1812.

His father, Dr. J.W. Guthrie, was a respected U.S. Army surgeon who talked young John into attending West Point.  However, after just a year, John transferred to the U.S. Navy and he entered it as a midshipman in 1834 and continued his career as a naval officer.

After the war, President U.S. Grant appointed him as superintendent of life-saving stations along the North Carolina-Virginia coasts.  He died on November 25, 1877.

--Old B-Runner

John J. Guthrie Papers in North Carolina

From the Biennial Report of the North Carolina  Historical Commission 1919.

JOHN J. GUTHRIE PAPERS

Collection contains 17 manuscripts of Captain John Julius Guthrie, the last commander of the blockade-runner, Advance.  (He did command the Advance, but it was commanded by someone else when it was captured.)

Among them are three A.L.S. of Governor Vance and also a list of the officers and crew of the Advance on February 1864.

Presented by Surgeon Joseph  A. Guthrie, USN, a son of  Captain John Julius Guthrie.

--Old B-Runner

Some More Guthrie Information. And Jospeh A. Guthrie Was a Son, Evidently.

The February 24, 1917,  Army Navy Register

"GUTHRIE--  At Portsmouth, Va.  February 16, 1917, Mary Louisa  Guthrie, daughter of  Captain John Julius Guthrie, Confederate States Army, deceased, and sister of Surgeon L.A.  Guthrie, U.S. Navy, retired."

Okay, so evidently Joseph A. Guthrie was a son of John Julius Guthrie. Annotated Bibliography.

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From United States Coast Guard

Meekins, Victor --  Captain John Julius Guthrie. the U.S. Coast Guard magazine,; November 1932, Vol. 6, p. 44.  (Captain  Guthrie served as a Confederate  naval officer before joining  the Revenue Cutter Service.)

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Guide to Manuscripts in North Carolina

Papers of J. Julius Guthrie, Jr.,  editor of the Raleigh  Daily Progress (1866-1867) include his Civil War  exemption (1863) and oath (1865).

--Old B-R'er

Were B.W. and John J. Guthrie, Jr., the Sons of John H. Guthrie? How About Joseph A. Guthrie?

Still looking for definitive proof.  I am of the opinion that John, Jr. and B.W.  Guthrie were the sons of Guthrie, Sr., but want more proof.

I went to the complete list of U.S. Navy officers 1799 to 1900 and did not find John Jr. or B,W.'s name, so they did not follow their dad into the U.S. Navy.

There was one other Guthrie, however, Joseph A. Guthrie.  He became an assistant surgeon on 27 January 1892  and a passed assistant surgeon on 27 January 1895.  In 1913, he was listed as a retired surgeon, U.S. Navy, living in Portsmouth, Virginia.

This is where John Julius Gutrhrie was buried, so that might make him a relative.

In 1921, Eleanor Raymond Guthrie, daughter of Joseph A. Guthrie, was married in Portsmouth, Va.

--Old B-Runner

B. W. Guthrie. Was He Another Son of John J. Guthrie?

There was also a B.W. Guthrie listed in the Confederate Naval Officer book.

Born in North Carolina.

Appointed from North Carolina

Master, not in line for promotion, February 24, 1862.

Master, not in line for promotion, Provisional Navy,  June 2, 1864.

Served on floating battery 1862-1863.

Receiving ship Arctic 1863-1864.  The Arctic was in the Wilmington Squadron.

Charleston Squadron 1864.

Could this be another son of John Junius Guthrie?

Extremely Promising.  --Old B-Runner

Was John J. Guthrie, Jr. the Son of John J. Guthrie?

I brought this up two posts ago when I wrote about John Julius Guthrie Jr.  Obviously with a senior and junior attached to the same first, middle and last name, that is highly possible.  But, I was looking for more proof.

The last two entries were from the complete list of Confederate officers during the Civil War.  And, I see that both were on the floating battery CSS New Orleans at the same time.  So, father and son serving on the same ship?  Quite possible.

Then, I came across John J. Guthrie's (Senior) Find a Grave entry, and although it didn't list him as a senior, I did see the name John Julius Guthrie (1844-1903) who was buried at Cedar Grove Cemetery in Portsmouth, Virginia, the same place as his father.

However, there was no further information given about John Julius Guthrie, Jr., which would have helped immensely in determining if they were indeed father and son.

Indeed You Do.  --Old B-Runner

John Julius Guthrie, CSN

From the Officers in the Confederate States Navy 1861-1865.

JOHN JULIUS GUTHRIE

Born in North Carolina.  Appointed from North Carolina.

Formerly lieutenant U.S. Navy.

Assumed command at New Orleans, October 14, 1861.

Commanding C.S. floating battery New Orleans 1862.

Naval Station Wilmington 1862-1863.

CSS Chattahoochie:  boiler explosion, May 27, 1863.

Special Service 1864; commanding North Carolina steamer A.D. Vance.

Appointed volunteer aid, personal staff, Gov. Z.B. Vance, March 23, 1865.

--Old B-Runner

John J. Guthrie, Jr. Was He John J. Guthrie's Son?

I have been writing about John J. Guthrie in last month's posts.  I came across this name in the Confederate naval officers list.

GUTHRIE, JOHN J. JR.

Born in _________________  Appointed from _____________

Master, not in line for promotion, October 21, 1861.

Reported for duty at New Orleans, October 21, 1861

C.S. floating battery New Orleans, 1862

Was this John Julius Guthrie's son?

--Old B-Runner

A.D. Vance, Blockade Runner

This is the ship that John J. Guthrie captained many times through the blockade at Wilmington, North Carolina.  Guthrie was put in charge of the slaver Nightingale which I wrote about much of this past March.

The A.D. Vance, often written Advance, was the former Clyde packet Lord Clyde, built at Caird and Co. Greenock.  She was owned  in large part by the State of North Carolina and named in honor of honor of a leading North Carolinian; some portion of her ownership rested in Power, Lord & Co. -- a Fayetteville newspaper reported it at two-thirds -- but  she was locally considered a public vessel.

The A.D. Vance was one of the most successful blockade runners and her loss, after  more than 20 voyages and 40-odd hair-breath escapes, was a blow keenly felt by the state.

Governor Zebulon  B. Vance attributed her capture, 10 September 1864, to use of low grade North Carolina bituminous coal and denounced Secretary  Mallory  for giving the stockpile of  smokeless anthracite to the Tallahassee so that none was left for the Advance to run out of Wilmington safely.

Writing 3 January 1865, Vance complained, "Why a State struggling for the common good, to clothe and provide for its troops  in the public service, should meet with no more favor favor than a blockade gambler passes my comprehension."

She was commanded by Captain Tom Crossan when taken by the USS Santiago de Cuba, becoming the USS Advance and eventually the Frolic.  Lt. John J. Guthrie, CSB, commander of the Chattahoochee at the time of her disaster, was her earlier captain.

--Old B-Runner